‘Trick And Treat’ With Dr. Barry Groves: Part 1 (Episode 189)
21 10 2008
Hello and welcome back for another fantastic interview with a genuine expert in the field of low-carbohydrate nutrition. That’s what we do here at The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show with Jimmy Moore!
In today’s episode we present Part 1 of Jimmy’s two-part interview with PhD, blogger and author Barry Groves. This week listen to them discussing Dr. Groves’ newly released book, Trick And Treat: How ‘Healthy Eating’ Is Making Us Ill. As you will hear throughout the interview, Dr. Groves is an extremely impassioned and informed proponent of the healthy low-carb lifestyle and provides evidence to back up his enthusiasm.
Also: Listen in for more details about the weeklong event coming this January where we ask past guests the best questions submitted by YOU! Learn how to get YOUR questions answered!
LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE 189
- Dr. Barry Groves’ Second Opinions web site
- Trick And Treat: How ‘Healthy Eating’ Is Making Us Ill
- Natural Health & Weight Loss
- Dr. Groves’ Diabetes web site
- Dr. Groves’ Cholesterol web site
- RELATED BLOG POST: “Groves: ‘Population-Led Revolt’ Needed For Low-Carb Diet Recognition”
- RELATED NEWS STORY: UK Telegraph–”Healthy food: Should we be eating more fat?”
And as always…
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From over 400 pounds to 230, Jimmy Moore is 
what are his thoughts on gary taubes’ gcbc?
I think he answers that question in Part 2 of the interview, but keep in mind the book is called Diet Delusion in the UK. If my memory serves correct from the interview I believe he read it and enjoyed much of what Gary wrote about. They hold many of the same views on diet, health, and exercise.
I’d be curious to know Dr. Groves thoughts on the Kitavans, who eat a large amount of carbohydrate from whole food sources (fruits and starchy vegetables). They apparently exhibit similar freedom from “diseases of civilization” as the Inuit, who of course eat rather little fruits and vegetables. At first blush this may seem paradoxical, but humans are omnivorous by design, so it probably makes sense that we can thrive over a wide range of diets. For example, fructose probably isn’t categorically bad. Using the Kitavans as an example, there is probably some amount that we can process effectively. Problems may arise when we have too much, possibly coupled with other influences (lack of micronutrients, toxins from grains, etc.)
Dave, he somewhat addressed this when I asked him about the Oriental population, but I’ll see what he has to say about the Kitavans.
It seems like there are some interesting corner cases like the Kitavans. The Kitavans have low incidence of both diseases of civilization and obesity. If I’m not mistaken, traditional sumo wrestlers become obese on a rice-heavy diet, yet don’t develop diabetes. Ancient Aztecs diet revolved around corn. They were familiar with many diseases we know today, and had words for different kinds of obesity, yet did not describe diabetes.
Just because the Kitavans can flourish eating plant matter does not mean the rest of us can or ought to even try. The kitavans are genetically adapted to it while Europeans for example are not or to a lesser extent. Keep in mind that the Kitavans are a very small isolated population.
The broader point ought to be, if you are not doing well on your diet you need to make some changes; the status quo recommendations are not true for everyone and in fact evidence show that they are very bad for the very vast majority.
Hi Marnee. I think you misunderstood my point, which is not that the Kitavan diet is special in any way, but that humans can flourish on a wide variety of diets. The common factor in healthy populations seems to be eating whole local foods (more or less), but within that the range is enormous (e.g. the Inuit to the Kitavans). I absolutely agree that you need to choose the diet that works for you, but to do so you need to be aware of the boundaries within which human populations maintain health.
It is unlikely that the Kitavans have been eating their diet long enough to exhibit any signficant genetic differences. Besides, you can’t assert a relevant genetic difference between Kitavans and Europeans without actually doing the test (if someone has done this, I would love to see the results). There are other examples of cultures which eat what we might consider a “high carbohydrate” diet without evidence of disease. Again, the common thread seems to be eating largely unprocessed foods, avoiding certain anti-nutritional foods (e.g. wheat), etc.
I do believe there is a difference between a diet for a healthy individual that maintains that health, and the diet required to heal from an unhealthy state. Analogy: when you break your leg, you wear a cast to stabilize the bone and let it heal. But healthy people don’t walk around in casts to prevent broken legs. Correspondingly a person with insulin resistance or full blown diabetes (a fair portion of the adults in the US) probably will experience the greatest benefit from a severely carbohydrate restricted diet, as their carbohydrate metabolism is deranged. But that person’s body is in a very different state than a healthy individual, so what constitutes a healthy diet may diverge significantly.
Hi Dave
Sorry to be late picking up your points. This week has been a bit hectic for me with lots of interviews because of the spectacular success of my latest book, Trick and Treat: How ‘healthy eating’ is making us ill, even though the official publication date isn’t until next week.
You make several good points. I lived with south Pacific islanders in 1995 and 1999 long enough to observe them and partake in their dietary habits. There are many differences between their diets and ours. One thing that tends to be missed is that the coconut, called the ‘tree of life’, is eaten in fairly large amounts. At over 90% saturated, coconut oil is the most saturated of any natural fat, and coconuts are eaten in large amounts.
All fats are very satiating. So although the islanders also eat root vegetable such as taro, they don’t eat as much as westerners eating a low-fat diet tend to do. They also eat fish and pork.
One other large difference is that the Islanders always eat their food fresh. All the veges and coconuts are fresh; the fish are freshly caught; the pigs are freshly killed, not several days old as when we get them, and so on. Their diets are much richer in vitamins, minerals and trace elements.
There is also one other thing. There is a strong inverse relation between levels of vitamin D and many modern, western diseases such as cancer and heart disease. The Kitavans live in permanent sunshine — and aren’t afraid to go out in it.
It’s interesting to contrast the Kitavans, Tokolauans, Cook Islanders and other Polynesians who are slim and disease-free with the Tongans. The Tongans are huge. Flying out of Tonga in 1995, with many Tongans on board, I was seriously worried about our plane’s ability to take off. The Tongans eat a much more carb-rich, lower-fat diet than in most of the other island groups. Because they were worried about obesity in the royal family, they imported a western dietitian to advise them — and it shows.
Great interview once again, looking forward to part 2!
There is a lot of great similiar things and thoughts between this book/interview and Dr. James Carlsons interview on his book “Genocide, how your doctors dietary ignorance will kill you.” – fantastic stuff !!
One day hopefully all people will talk about a low carb woe as ‘The Healthy Diet’
Hi Dr. Groves. Glad to hear about the success of your new book, I’m looking forward to reading it.
I think we’re pretty much on the same page. I should have a little more clear with my question, which was prompted by your comments about fructose. Perhaps I misunderstood, but it sounded like you were saying that fruit was categorically bad because it contained fructose. I would guess that the body can handle some level of fructose, as it seems unlikely that our Paleolithic forebearers would have foregone eating fruit when it was available. Of course that was wild fruit, only seasonally available, usually much lower in sugars and higher in micronutrients than our modern supermarket versions which have been engineered for size and sweetness. Getting too many calories from fruit is almost certainly bad, as evidenced by the disastrous health consequences from adopting a “fruitarian” diet. But for healthy individuals, at least, I would think a little locally available fruit would be within body’s ability to process fructose.
I’m curious as to the details of the Tongan diet as recommended by the Western dietitian (is this maybe discussed in your forthcoming book?). I would guess they added a lot of grain products, as opposed to just increasing intake of starchy foods. Were they also getting more fructose in refined foods? I have a growing suspicion that on or both of these may play the key role in the development of metabolic syndrome, as opposed to general overconsumption of carbohydrates. Of course, once you’ve got metabolic syndrome, all carbs likely have a negative health effect as the body has lost the ability to effectively process even small amounts.
If they invited a “western” dietician you don’t have to look far for an answer. I bet my bottom dollar, that this person recommendend to cut down on fat and eat loads of healthy carbohydrates. Maybe to cut down on sugar (not realising that carbs are just sugar as well) and soft drinks, but certainly cut the fat of your meat, eat very little red meat, not more than 2 eggs a week and all the rest of the crap that we have been force-fed for the last twenty years or so.
I think Trick & Trick is very interesting to read. Dr. Barry Groves has written a book that complements Taubes’ Good Calories, Bad Calories (The Diet Delusion) in that it takes some things further (e.g. looking at the role of omega 6 oils – vegetable oils – in modern diseases) and is far more accessible to the layperson.
I agree, Emma! Although Gary is working on a more user-friendly version of GCBC.