686: Dr. John McDougall Explains Why Everyone Should Be Eating Starchy Carbs

john_a_mcdougall

Outspoken vegan physician and author Dr. John McDougall is our guest today in Episode 686 of “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show.”

After months of being away from this podcast while writing the manuscript to his forthcoming August 27, 2013 book Cholesterol Clarity: What The HDL Is Wrong With My Numbers?, our host Jimmy Moore is back in his rightful place again interviewing the top names in the world of diet, fitness and health. Jimmy wanted to make sure his first episode back was a memorable one and we have a sneaky suspicion this could be one of the most-listened to interviews he’s ever done. We wanted to find someone who would be intriguing, engaging and even a bit controversial to get Jimmy back into the fray again. BOY DID WE EVER!

TheStarchSolution_250x325 Dr. John McDougall, author of The Starch Solution: Eat the Foods You Love, Regain Your Health, and Lose the Weight for Good!, is arguably the most famous proponent of a starch-based vegan diet in the world and graciously accepted Jimmy’s invitation to appear on “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show.” Since Jimmy has had respectful and cordial conversations with other vegan advocates such as Dr. Dean Ornish and Dr. Neal Barnard in the past, he was more than pleased to hear what Dr. McDougall had to share regarding his nutritional philosophies. Unfortunately, somebody forgot to send Dr. McDougall the memo that Jimmy Moore’s a nice guy.

This episode is an instant classic that you will find extremely entertaining for a variety of reasons. Whether you are Paleo, low-carb, vegan or vegetarian, something tells us you won’t be able to resist listening from start to finish and then wanting to go back and listen again and again! While Jimmy attempted to remain civil in discussing nutrition with Dr. McDougall, it quickly became apparent that Dr. McDougall was more interested in disparaging and mocking our host for being overweight and unhealthy despite the fact that he weighs less and is healthier today than he has ever been in his entire adult life. Hold on to your hats as you listen to this one, folks, because it’s a wild and bumpy ride! ENJOY!

ACCESS THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THIS INTERVIEW

The following are all the videos referenced during today’s interview:

Low Carb vs. Plant-Based

http://youtu.be/2zVxA6yipv4

Obese Low Carb Guru of the Month–Jimmy Moore

http://youtu.be/Q9k7VhM_Oh8

Low Carb Guru Of The Month Jimmy Moore Responds To VegSource

http://youtu.be/KzYWpOVX8no

Jimmy Moore – Low Carb Guru Update!

http://youtu.be/PutaZQN8R34

GINA RYAN’S “NOURISHING BY HEART” NUTRITION COUNSELING:

GET 40% OFF NUTRITION COUNSELING SERVICES
NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: http://cmp.ly/3
LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE 686
- Gina Ryan’s “Nourishing By Heart” nutrition counseling (40% discount for LLVLC fans)
- Dr. John McDougall bio
- The Starch Solution: Eat the Foods You Love, Regain Your Health, and Lose the Weight for Good!
- Dr. McDougall’s Health and Medical Center
- Dr. McDougall on Twitter
- Dr. McDougall on Facebook
- Dr. McDougall’s “McDougallCast” podcast
- Dr. McDougall’s interview with Dr. Robert C. Atkins
- RELATED PODCAST: 657: LLVLC Classic – Dr. Dean Ornish Says There Is Common Ground Between Low-Fat And Low-Carb Diets
- RELATED PODCAST: 415: Dr. Neal Barnard On Vegetarian And Vegan Diabetes Control

  • Eric Westman

    Well done Jimmy! These interviews are important as the new science over the last 10 years is ignored by most folks like MacDoogal.

    Dr. Eric Weston — er, I mean — Westman

    • LLVLCBlog

      I wasn’t going to let him make fun of your research without at least getting your name right. ;)

  • Cuppy Duppy

    wow. I doubt the doc was ever overweight, ever struggled with being truly fat. the doc is a jack ass. I am not low carb or high carb, but I am diabetic and if I ate the diet the doc is suggesting I would be far more obese and using insulin like it was water or be dead. how do I know you ask? I had cancer, I couldn’t eat protein of any kind it just made me throw up. so I was on a carb and soft veg only diet for 4 months (until my surgery) and I gained a whopping 50lb and my insulin usage went over 250 units a day. Now, I exercise, I keep my carbs between 20 and 100, depending on how my day goes. I have celiac so avoiding carbs is easy. I eat a lot of vegies, 90-150 grams of protein a day, and drink a lot of water. the weight is falling off and I feel better. Jimmy is right, do what is right for your body not what some trumped up little dictator in a lab coat tells you.

  • Jonas Troyer

    Why are vegans so god damn angry, they just yell a lot and can’t really hold a reasonable conversation.

    • Brian John Bell

      he isn’t a vegan he eats grains

    • Sabu137

      Something about rational dialog atrophies when they stop eating butter, I suspect.

  • Joyce Braun

    That was hard to get through. I used to follow McDougall, but he`s lost a lot of credibility. And it`s strange that he seems so angry.

    • Westcincyjohn@gmail.com

      Hi Joyce, did you ever do the McDougall ten day Santa Rosa program? I was signed up a few years ago, had my medical records sent over, but had something come up a the last minute. I’ve been on the “at home” program half a dozen times since 2006, but have never been able to get over the elevated BS readings following a starch based diet. I was surprised to hear his interview with Jimmy sound so defensive and angry.

  • Brian John Bell

    I go up and down in my weight too. I go up when I eat starches and lose wheat when I eat meat and dairy. Funny that. Traditional Chinese diet didn’t have coca cola. Now look at them. Getting bigger! Trust me I’ve lived there for years!
    Not to mention I just 2 people today that are super thin and have high cholesterol. One of their wives said they eat too much flour. The other I know eats lots of starches.
    A month ago I had a bowl of spaghetti and I got an extreme blood rush to the head and my whole face went red. I ate rice and potato today and my whole face went red and I felt sluggish.

    Starches and gets cholesterol. Starches and get blood rush and red face. huh interesting!

  • Brian John Bell

    Dr. Robert O. Young is a high fat vegan. He says that you need fat to circulate the nutrients. A bad temper I believe is a result of a low fat diet. After I eat pasta and bread I feel argumentative. After eating lots of cheese and meat these days I feel a lot better. Cutting out starches was the best thing I have ever done.

  • Brian John Bell

    I eat fruit and vegetables, I also eat rice, potato and other vegetable starches.But I also eat a lot of cheese and meat. I DONT eat wheat based foods! And guess what, the weight is a coming off!!

    • LLVLCBlog

      Good for you.

  • GoodStew

    Dr. McD is being raked over the coals for his bad behavior on the New Atkins for A New You Amz. Discussion. I couldn’t drag and drop the address in here but if you look up T.Colin Campell’s review of The New Atkins.. “Imaginary Science…” you’ll see the support you got Jimmy. pg 507.

  • BrianMel

    Starch or animals? Why not both? Potatoes and meat are both delicious and nourishing. They have both been in your ancestor’s diet for probably at least the last thirty thousand years unless you have major genetic roots from extreme environments.

    I think most people only get into metabolic trouble when they start eating several large meals a day and walking less than a half mile a day. Or they make the other mistake and eat very irregular, small meals while being physically active. Both of these will lead to metabolic stress that will wreck your body and mind.

    I really enjoy having a big starchy carb and animal feast in the evening where I get almost all of the food I need for the next day. It feels awesome and I sleep awesome. Then I usually don’t eat again until I get a little hungry in the mid to late afternoon where I usually only eat a half cup of nuts at most. Then it’s feasting time again with friends and family a few hours later for the rest of the night.

    If I’m going to be really active for hours I usually have a large breakfast too. This is a great daily rhythm that has made my entire health and body composition better than ever. It’s extremely simple, fool-proof, and usually works great with my schedule.

    Most people don’t need to choose between starch or meat to have well working metabolism. You don’t have to choose between McDougall or Moore extremes. You can have both (like a normal human being) if you concentrate your starch and most of your eating to the evening.

    Intermittent fasting is the key to a long healthy life for most people. Adding in two miles of walking everyday plus any strength building activity will make your hormones about as optimal as you could ever hope for.

    • Michael Trumper

      Well said, the only thing I could add is that the amount of carbs or fat that is best for individuals varies quite dramatically. In my teens and twenties, I thrived on starches, but as my metabolism has changed I cannot tolerate them nearly as well. So now, my mat and protein stay fairly constant and I vary my carb intake depending upon my activity levels. I find if I can keep my carbs between 50 -100g, appetite is well controlled with good energy and 2 meals/day.

    • John Etcheverry

      I’d like to see what Dr. Lustig would say to him in a debate?

      Dr.McDougal’s plan did not work for me…I mean it was successfull in getting me Pre-Diabetic.He’s such a hypocrite saying No One has failed his diet. He’s the classic arrogant Dr., always blaming the patient instead of the diet.

  • Brian John Bell

    John McDougall has really annoyed me to be honest. Jimmy you’re I great shape. you still have belly waste but that will go with some time, just need to do some specific kids of aerobic exercises to shift that. I only eat rice because my wife is Chinese and I don’t want to disrupt our meal times by not eating what she eats. I’m figuring out how to combine rice and low carb principles. Basically rice isn’t as evil as wheat as described in wheat belly. It’s also low GI. But I’d lose much quicker I didn’t have it. still slow weight loss is better for losing the excess skin.

  • Dan

    I’m a bit confused. You say that you’ve lost a lot of weight and you’re the lowest you’ve been your entire adult life, but I’m looking at recent (Nov 2012) videos of you and you are fat and look unhealthy. Are there more recent photo’s showing your superior health anywhere?

  • James Dyer

    I used to weigh 400lbs, which was caused by a food addiction and living on a low carb roller coaster.. I have since lost 225lbs, and live healthier than ever before, as a plant based, spirit-filled foods consumer.. raw/living fruits, greens, sprouted seeds, and vegetables, provide me with all essential nutrients for peak health. I could no longer imagine eating anything but the true building blocks of life, of which, decaying flesh is not.

    Your path is your own, but I could not eat animals again, as its murder for pleasure, which my consciousness cannot live with. Truly, it is not necessary to end a life, in order to maintain life.

    Maybe if we lived in the days where we did not have such abundant agriculture, like cave men, but now it is no longer necessary to murder animals for the pleasure received from eating their flesh, which is the only reason why people truly eat meat.

    God Bless

    • LLVLCBlog

      If you’ve found what works for you, then that’s awesome James. Congratulations buddy and here’s to many years of healthy living.

    • Paleo Huntress

      Two years as a whole food vegan and I never encountered a plant food that didn’t decay. Add to that that plants also have flesh, and one has to wonder where this magical non-decaying plant flesh that you’re eating comes from. Personally, I wouldn’t eat ANYTHING that doesn’t decay- but it’d be interesting to check out this miracle of veganism.

  • Hans Keer

    Hello Jimmy,

    Too bad the interview went as it went. I listened to the interview John. A. McDougall had with Robert Atkins in 2007, I must say Atkins managed to parry McDougall very well. Strong point was that Atkins emphasized the similar effect the two opposing diets had. Due to your podcast I listened to several McDougall’s podcasts and the audio of videos. I tried to find the similarities with the diet I follow, namely the Perfect Health Diet of the Jaminets. What I found was that in both diets there is a place for safe starches and no or very little room for omega-6 rich plant oils, refined sugars (containing lots of fructose) and
    wheat. On many other aspects McDougall differs from the Jaminets, but maybe there is a beginning of a consensus or a clue. BTW with you, I believe that already few starches may be no option for those who are already metabolically derailed.

    VBR, Hans Keer

  • Tim Conway

    Dear Dr. McDougall,

    You mad bro?

    Maybe you wouldn’t have to argue your position so much if you actually had facts on your side. You could just lay them out and let thinking people decide for themselves. I know a guy that does that though he’s not a doctor. What’s his name again? Oh yeah, Jimmy Moore…

  • Cheryl Epp Colgan

    My hair hurts listening to this clown.

  • Marie Watson

    I am a follower of the McDougall plan but I have to admit, Dr. McDougall was rude in this interview and likely undermined his position. I followed low carb for a few years and lost only a few pounds but was not able to maintain that small loss very long. Now, following the McDougall way of eating, I have not lost any weight (and when I posted on his message boards to ask for help, I was insulted and accused of cheating). But I do believe the science of a low-fat plant-based diet for health, so I keep trying. Anyway, McDougal fans may not like to admit it, but Dr. McDougall *was* rude to you in this interview.

  • Sue Staltari

    According to other sources Jimmy baited McDougall and this is exactly what he wanted to get his ratings back up again.

  • Stan Pinsky

    So combative. Epidemiological data is what it is, love it,
    hate it, dismiss it. Meat, dairy, cigarette loving France is 4th for
    life expectancy. Of the rice/potato gang only Japan (1st) is higher, Korea 19th, China 49th, Vietnam 61st, and Peru 86th. And of course nobody mentions India the largest population of vegetarians they’re 138th. Sure there are plenty of factors (umm quality of healthcare) here but at least quiche is not acutely toxic.

    It’s interesting “n of one” was meaningless for Walhs and
    Jimmy yet proof that Atkins killed himself with his own diet. Has the veg squad ever heard of crossfit? Weak, sickly, and fat right? How about diet death match McDougall/Barnard vs. Sisson/Wolf. I know who I’m betting on

    Morbid obesity and long term weight loss are a whole
    separate subject. I would be shocked if McDougall has data supporting compliance with his diet is any better for that population. My impression is none of big names in veganism
    have ever been even 10lbs overweight.

  • Paleo Huntress

    The way he kept telling you that the switch to processed and refined carbohydrates wasn’t as significant as the increase in animal food was frustrating. What he advocates has NOTHING to do with fleshing out the potential causes of the decline in health. I would love to see his evidence that additional animal food is the bigger change. I call bullshit.

    Two years of whole food veganism left me diabetic, hypertensive and 65lbs heavier. 10.5 months of low-carb Paleo left me 100lbs leaner and reversed the diabetes and hypertension- and years later, I’m still there. =)

    Anecdata is worthless until you start pooling it. Then then it becomes data.

  • Andrew Baird

    Plenty of people have said that Jimmy should have returned McDougal’s vitriol, but I have to defend Jimmy’s restraint in not descending to Dr. McDougal’s level of tribal warfare.

    Paleo is, unfortunately, still very much a minority viewpoint where diet is concerned. Most people are still wed to low-fat/calorie-restricted. So, people seek out like-minded leaders, and for minority viewpoints this becomes prone to becoming cultish (particulary as seen by the outside world). I suspect the paleo ‘community’ is already seen like a paleo ‘cult’ by many non-adherents.

    So, it’s healthy both for the insiders and the outsiders for people like Jimmy to welcome competing viewpoints onto his show to rationally and (hopefully) civilly debate the differences in their positions. I’m sure Jimmy doesn’t want his show to function like an echo-chamber, converting the converted.

    We all have to keep in mind that perhaps a non-paleo “expert” will come in here and teach us (and maybe Jimmy) some things we didn’t know already. I, for one, love potatoes, rice, corn, etc…and I would love to be able to safely re-incorporate them into my diet knowing I could do so without spiking my blood sugar and contributing to insulin resistance, etc. And if such a path to “insulin-safe” starches were laid out by Dr. McDougal, I’d have been a listening ear, were he convincing or could point us to studies showing that this had been effectively done, particularly for people already metabolically damaged by the refined carbohydrates he even agrees do damage.

    Unfortunately, McDougal clearly seems to be well-entrenched into tribalist us-vs-them thinking and was only interested in coming on the show to tell Jimmy how stupid he is (you know, because he doesn’t have a piece of paper proving prior indoctrination). Jimmy proved himself the superior human being by acting like an adult. This, more than the “fight back” approach, should help Jimmy retain the ability to get competing viewpoints on the show in the future, and that benefits all of us.

  • Bret

    Where to even begin…
    1. McDougall talked way too much. It was obvious he wanted to blurt out as much info as he could to keep Jimmy from talking. Reminded me of a more arrogant version of Dr. Ornish.
    2. When Jimmy subtly suggested sugar and refined carbs might have caused those modern Hawaiians’ afflictions, McDougall became extremely defensive. Aggressively so, even. It was a simple question–why couldn’t he just answer it? He also accused Jimmy of insinuating that the McDougall diet was full of sugar, which he absolutely did not do. The guy didn’t even listen at all…he just loved to hear himself talk.
    3. Good God, how many times did I hear, “I am a DOCTOR… I have treated [x number of] patients…” So what? There are plenty of low-carb DOCTORS who have treated thousands of patients as well, with extreme success. You should be able to argue your points with science-based arguments, not desperately default to your credentials. There are a lot of doctors, and there is a huge range of opinions among them. Saying, “I’m a Doctor” is not a trump card, or a punch line. It is a cop-out.
    4. In addition to observational metadata, McDougall’s clinical arguments were based on anecdotal evidence. He was also quick to engage in the personally nasty and (also) anecdotal practice of pointing to individual low-carb folks and calling them fat. And yet, when Jimmy used individual examples, McDougall dismissed them immediately as anecdotal and thus useless. “You’re an experiment of one.” Oh, I see. So anecdotal evidence is okay, as long as it supports McDougall’s points. It’s not reliable when it supports the opposing view.
    That was absolutely ridiculous. Vegans, is this your spokesman and hero? Really?

  • Brian John Bell

    look Chinese eat rice. rice is starch and therefore the perfect category of food. Chinese also eat lots of oil, meat, bread, refine sugars, KFC, MC Donald’s, you name it. I guess meat is the perfect food too, and bread, and oil, and KFC, and MC Donald’s. I lived there for years and trust me they eat lots and lots of meat. Lots. The Chinese eat it so it must be perfect. Or wait perhaps their metabolisms differs from the way the average non- Asian’s metabolism works. WOW maybe that’s it.

    • benfaust

      You’re right about what the Chinese eat today. Unfortunately, obesity is on the rise in China because they’re starting to eat more like Americans.

  • Sandra Thornton

    We listened to this podcast with great interest. Jimmy, you handled yourself as a true gentleman against great odds! We respect that you bring on guests with differing points of view, and we agree with your perspective that one approach doesn’t fit all, and we do appreciate hearing a variety of ideas and research (although personally we have had success with a low carb Paleo influenced diet for several years). Dr. macdougal’s belligerent, condescending, “I’m a doctor” attitude certainly didn’t impress us. His attacks on you and others in the low carb / Paleo movement came across as childish and desperate.

    Glad to have you back, Jimmy. Keep up the great work.

  • Penny H

    Wow, sugar is not health food is NOT an answer to Mr Moore’s legitimate questions about the change in HOW we eat (takeout, fastfood, frozen prepackaged food) … Low carb works, it is scientifically proven.What he is doing seems to be nothing more than CR, which clearly works but it doesn’t matter what you eat when you are restricting calories (although you can eat more food it you eat lower calories foods, like potatoes, rice and all sorts of veggies). There is more than one way to skin a cat, but it all depends on what works for the individual – like, I have the time to google and find recipes that are low carb, then prepare them fro scratch for my family at home. I save on money and we are all healthy. But, for those with fast paced lifestyles or who don’t like to cook, might not be a great diet. To each his own. I think we call all agree that more natural food, with less additives etc, is better on ANY diet.

  • Penny H

    This is ridiculous. Sorry but I have to comment again.This is pure fantasy. He wants us to believe that these people can never eat any dairy, any meat, and apparently any sugar (it is NOT a health food, did you know that?) and his compliance it as high as 80% of people follow the diet 100% of the time? Where in Neverland?

  • Lawrence Louis

    Jimmy,

    I wasn’t expecting Dr. McDougall to be this abrasive. His agitation, because you had the temerity to question him, was quite off putting. As a man of science, as he professes to be, he should welcome inquiry. His caustic tone, and his insistence on taking personal jabs at you, without updating himself on your improving physical condition, illustrates that Dr. McDougall is not so much concerned about the science as opposed to upholding his dietary dogma. Jimmy, I have to commend you for keeping your composure. You definitely showed more self-control than I would have shown.

    There was a lot wrong with Dr. McDougall’s arguments, but one of the most glaring problems was his notions about human evolution and the historical human diet. His ideas about these things are the stuff of vegan fantasy, and not historical reality. Every bit of evidence shows that a largely starch based diet was only adopted by human beings in the last 10,000 years of our existence, because that was when we finally developed the knowledge and technology to cultivate grains, corn, potatoes, rice and other starches in sufficient quantities to feed populations. It should be noted that the when scientists reference 10,000 years ago, as a turning point in food production, it only points to the time in which agriculture emerged as a force in some parts of the world. In reality other large portions of the world did not see the emergence of agriculture until much more recently. That 10,000 years of existence is a small fraction of the total time homo sapiens have been around. Fossil records are pretty much conclusive that for the vast majority of human history homo sapiens subsisted on meat.

    This notion is not just something that is asserted by Paleo advocates, like Dr. Boyd Eaton, Dr. Loren Cordain and Robb Wolf. These are things that are well acknowledged by most evolutionary biologists, such as the esteemed author, Dr. Jared Diamond, who wrote the award winning book “Guns, Germs, and Steel”. Dr. Jared Diamond has no stake in the Paleo vs. Vegan debate and writes primarily about what made certain societies successful and others fail, from an evolutionary perceptive. I bring his highly acclaimed book up also to point out that Dr. McDougall is using flawed logic when he states that “all successful large societies eat a starch based diet”. As Dr. Diamond points out in his book, large populations that were successful militarily and politically, needed a largely starch based diet because it was cheap and plentiful. The problem with Dr. McDougall is that he is erroneously conflating what can maintain large populations with what is best for INDIVIDUAL human health. Those are two different things.

    I think he secretly knows how dubious much of his ideas are. That is why he got particularly irate when you kept bringing up the sugar and wheat angle, because it creates a huge problem for the evidence he uses to demonstrate the efficacy of his diet, and the supposed deleterious effects of a low carb diet, rich in animal foods. In order to demonstrate that increased meat consumption, in successive generations, is what is causing all of our health problems, he would have to demonstrate that other items, like sugar and wheat, which also rose steeply in successive generations (more so than meat consumption) was not the real culprit of those maladies. Since most of what he cites is epidemiological studies, there is no way to control for those things. As the old saying goes correlation is not causation. Maybe Dr. McDougall forgot that elementary scientific principle because he is blinded by his vegan crusade.

    As always Jimmy, I appreciate all you do and your willingness to be an open forum for opposing points of view – even if those opposing points of view are expressed rudely and irrationally by some of your guests.

    -Lawrence

  • Jack

    I use too feel like shit eating lots of fat and carbs (meat cheese starch and fruit and veg), then I want high fat felt better but then chose to be vegan and want high carb and now feel amazing. Its the mix of fat and sugar that causes many problems for everyone. btw Doritos, pizza, chips, Ice cream, cakes, donuts are higher in fat than carbs, they are fat food not carb…Also if you put butter or sour cream on your potatoes, or alfredo sauce on your pasta or oilly dressing on your lettuce you are getting once again alot more calories from fat than carbs.

    • LLVLCBlog

      LOL! Keep telling yourself that.

    • Paleo Huntress

      lol A cup of plain brown rice has significantly more calories than a cup of broccoli florets smothered in butter. It’s the carbs that add the most fat to the average person’s diet. And why mention adding fat to densely starchy carbs? No one here is eating those carb sources. We’re all eating densely NUTRITIOUS, fibrous carbs with lots of real, luscious fat on them. Mmmmm. We stay fuller, longer and we get more nutrition in per calorie. =)

  • Kevin McMahon

    I am a fan of Mc Dougall and his diet. I have tried Atkins and was miserable on it so know that paleo would not work for me. Plus it gave me body odor and bad breath and oily skin. With that being said I can see how some people think Dr. Mc Dougall came off as rude in this interview but I assure you that he is very passionate about what he teaches as he has seen first hand how it has helped thousands and thousands of people with some very serious health issues.

  • Michael Hirasuna

    The low-carb vs plant-base video was definitely a cheap shot. I did not realize until now that John McDougall was behind it. The video seems to show an act of desperation by a group that is losing the intellectual argument. Certainly you can show Dean Ornish and Peter Attia as counter examples. People with attractive bodies probably exercise more, and maybe the low-fat advocate shown simply exercised more because they have to.

  • poopybumbums

    How many mg’s of caffeine were pumping through your veins during this interview jimmy boi? And what other sups you taking dawg.





  • RSS
  • Newsletter
  • Twitter
  • Facebook
  • YouTube